Let’s say just like for example like MacOS. It’s awesome we have so many tools but at the same time lack of some kind of standardization can seem like nothing works and you get overwhelmed. I’m asking for people that want to support Linux or not so tech-savy people.
Look at the Steam Deck as an example:
- Linux is preinstalled
- Integrated hardware and software
- Immutable OS that is very hard to bork
- UI is Windows-like which is familiar to the target market
- Good value for the price
- Offered by a well-known and well-liked brand
- Marketed and advertised to the target market
We need more Linux devices like this to gain market share.
You got it. The moment you surface the idea that there are multiple distros or DEs you’ve missed the goal the thread is suggesting. Presintalled, customized software built for the hardware is the way to ease people in with zero tweaking, which is crucial for newcomers.
I think this was Steve Jobs’ primary skill. He could see a clear vision of the product people didn’t know they wanted. Bottom to top, from the hardware to run on, to the typeface their apps used; he knew that the best user experiences happened when every level of the stack harmonized to create a very finely tuned user experience.
Unfortunately, the people who are that good usually don’t work for free. We’re very fortunate that Valve is choosing to open source their work and keep their SteamDeck platform an open one.
He shipped enough clunkers (and terrible design decisions) that I never bought the mythification of Jobs.
In any case, the Deck is a different beast. For one, it’s the second attempt. Remember Steam Machines? But also, it’s very much an iteration on pre-existing products where its biggest asset is pushing having an endless budget and first party control of the platform to use scale for a pricing advantage.
It does prove that the system itself is not the problem, in case we hadn’t picked up on that with Android and ChromeOS. The issue is having a do-everything free system where some of the do-everything requires you to intervene. That’s not how most people use Windows (or Android, or ChromeOS), and it’s definitely not how you use any part of SteamOS unless you want to tinker past the official support, either. That’s the big lesson, I think. Valve isn’t even trying to push Linux, beyond their Microsoft blood feud. As with Google, it’s just a convenient stepping stone in their product design.
What the mainline Linux developer community can learn from it, IMO, is that for onboarding coupling the software and hardware very closely is important and Linux should find a way to do that on more product categories, even if it is by partnering with manufacturers that won’t do it themselves.
System76 is doing that these days. They put extra hardware support for their Linux distro TuxedoOS and I’ve heard good things.
Edit: System76 make PopOS and Tuxedo computers make TuxedoOS
I think you meant Pop!_OS (is developed by System76). TuxedoOS is developed by Tuxedo Computers, which is a European Linux focused hardware company.
That said, the point stands… there are hardware companies making Linux supported devices.
Sorry, I mixed those up. Thanks for the correction
Underlying kernel aside, I think that the Steamdeck’s SteamOS is an excellent example of how “easy to use” != “smaller feature-set”. I’ve heard countless times from apple dudes that the reason that their stuff allegedly “just works” is because of the lack of some functionally that if present would overwhelm the user. You know, as if ios and android don’t share fundamentally the same user interface principles. But they do have a point, a green user can be overwhelmed when presented with a huge feature set all at once. Yet, despite SteamOS literally having a full-blown desktop environment, the UI frankly is way less confusing than my Xbox. It just goes to show that it’s not about the number of features, it’s about how they’re presented. Power users don’t mind digging into a (well designed) settings menu to enable some advanced functionality, and keeping those advanced features and settings (with reasonable defaults) hidden around the corner behind an unlocked door helps the newbie get started with confidence.
Yeah exactly.
But what about casual usage like office? The option to choose OS preinstalled on the laptops or desktop would be beneficial.
But Microsoft holds its monopolistic grip.
“People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware.”
The only way to make sure Linux works like that is to have a closed hardware environment. But it has to play nicely with other hardware and services (e.g. printers, webcams, etc + office documents, etc). It has taken a very long time for MacOS to get to this point, but people put up with Mac compromises because enough things worked smoothly.
I’ve just commented about this in another thread…but I’m pretty convinced that Linux is not close to being ready for normies.
but I’m pretty convinced that Linux is not close to being ready for normies.
Yeah. I consider myself somewhat tech savvy (I do software development for work) and I had a really bad time installing mint on my desktop. I got it to work after a day but that was far more than a casually interested person would put up with.
To make Linux more appealing to the average person, you’d have to be able to buy a Linux PC at your local computer store. Most people can’t be bothered to install a new OS.
That’s also true but also impossible. Linux isn’t a for profit company.
What are you even talking about? Anyone can sell a PC with pre-installed Linux. There are already several companies today so just that.
Let me clarify myself
*It’s impossible to get big corporate guys attention so they ship Linux by default and it’s clearly tested. For now the Valve, System76, Framework and Tuxedo are exception.
Edit: Also I was keeping in mind corporate entity behind OS.
- Apple - MacOS
- Microsoft - Windows
- ? - Linux
Dell sells PC’s with Linux installed.
Not in retail stores though AFAIK
Correct. I was just touching on the big corporations point since they listed some online only retailers.
It would be a real leap forward, if Linux PCs were sold in big box stores. Which is why Microsoft will do anything they can to prevent that.
The big guys won’t sell Linux to consumers because of Microsoft’s anticompetitive practices. That’s the main thing that’s holding back Linux acceptance right now. But if some big player (e.g. Valve) would take the leap, things might get interesting.
Yes exactly.
“It’s impossible. Let me list 4 exceptions though”
Hahaha true 😆
But the scale is too small for now. :/
Dell have at times sold laptops with Linux pre installed.
Can you buy a Dell laptop with Linux at a retail store?
I’ve seen this type of question elsewhere. Why is it an issue?
Standardisation? Corporate Linux? Just like the big boys? Big fish eat little fish.
Careful what you ask for . .
Perhaps someone could make a business of it then.
Chromebooks sold well enough. Google made $30 billion on that in 2023.
Anyone willing to put together a physical Linux machine, market and support it could take a chunk of that.
No major OEM will do a consumer Linux PC because MS will punish them with Windows licence pricing. You’d have to be a newcomer that’s not beholden to MS. At the same time, you’d need a shitload of cash to start a hardware business with enough volume to get into big box stores. That’s why it hasn’t happened yet
For me it was always a niche that wasn’t taken full advantage of.
Chromebooks never really made sense outside of schools and old people.
The OS is hyper limited to essentially just a web browser, and android apps (so just a web browser). Nobody wants to buy premium hardware to use with just Chrome. But at the same time it’s Chrome, so you really need at least a good chunk of RAM. So it really just limits you to the super light use cases, but those could realistically be replaced by a tablet.
The other day we saw an extremely odd device at malwart. They had a $270 laptop/tablet hybrid thing with a fairly nice OLED display, and a snapdragon CPU that should have been more that sufficient. But 128gb of EMMC storage, and 4 gigs of ram. Such wasted potential. It would make a nice RDP machine I guess.
lol wtf are you talking about? You can literally take $100 off the price of a computer just because it’s not bundled with a Winderps license - the price is straight up lower because the license cost is $0. You can order some models like this straight from Dell or Lenovo or whatever.
OEMs aren’t paying $100 per license. They’re also making deals with McAfee/Norton/whatever to package a bunch of extra crap on your windows laptop to lower the price further.
I don’t see it as impossible. Like various brands are distributed with windows, various brands can be distributed with various Linux distros, customizable by distro and features, pre-order. These brands can work out a donation contract with distros.
Yes, but also companies say that Linux support is not worth it (gaining money and spending on the support) compared to - slapping barely working Windows port and call it a day.
For now Linux support is more like pleasant surprise than a official respected thing.
I bet when demand crosses a certain threshold, support supply will quickly follow, gatekeepers bedamned.
If you sell a Linux machine to consumers, Microsoft will screw you over on Windows licencing. No current OEM will risk that.
Contacts end and contracts begin. While it may be a good while, I think we are goingseeing large corporations like Microsoft enter autophagy.
I’m a very casual Linux user and in my experience, I’ve NEVER had a problem with a documented solution that didn’t require going down a rabbit hole of other references.
Something like this: “To get the trackpad to work with Ubuntu, make sure you’ve installed the hergelbergelXX package.” (No link, find it on your own!)
Visit the HergelBergelXX page. To install Hergelbergel on Ubuntu, you must install the framisPortistan Package Manager. (No link!)
On the FramisPortistan GitHub readme, we discover it requires the JUJU3 database system to be installed. “JUJU3 may cause conflicts with installed USB devices under Ubuntu” JUJU2, which shipped with Ubuntu, is no longer supported. Also we recommend Archie&Jughead Linux over other distributions.
And this essentially never stops.
All of this is comparatively a happy result—I actually DID post a question on linuxnoobs about getting my trackpad to work with Ubuntu… and have not had a single reply. I have no idea how to find out how to make it work.
I had similar stories getting Wireless Networking to work on some devices before. Good thing is, there are drivers for most, if not all, default hardware interfaces directly in the kernel nowadays and if a device has any sort of popularity it will be supported before long if it isn’t out of the box.
I’m not talking about a long-ago problem. I’m talking about a current install of Ubuntu.
Yes, presumably on hardware that’s just a bit too old or rare. Might be unlucky as Linux compatibility isn’t high up on OEMs lists
Hat a problem with WLAN on a laptop when I tried to install fedora. The solution was to install Linux mint with LAN\internet and let the driver manager figure it all out.
Maybe that helps.
Simple, start teaching it in elementary school all the way up through high school. Apple did it long ago and got apple users out of those kids. Microsoft does it now, and now you have Windows users. Just need the computer education to be Linux centric from the start. It’s not that it’s different, it’s that it’s not what they grew up with and were taught.
Windows hasn’t been in schools for a while. It is all Chrome OS
I think it depends. If a school has a laptop for each student, it is most certainly a Chromebook. However, a lot of schools also have a mix of systems. In elementary school, I was taught to use Microsoft Office on Windows, for instance. At my high school, all the students had Chromebooks, but there were also some labs with Windows machines; graphic design, photography, and film classes had labs full of 5K iMacs.
Chromebooks are low cost and easy to manage. Unless it is for a highly specific use I wouldn’t be surprised if a school was all Chromebooks and Chromeboxes.
Also there is a public high school full of expensive macs? That’s wild
Not exactly “full of” - it was more like 3 classrooms with 30 each. Still a lot of Macs, but keep in mind this was a high school of 2000 students. Also, I’m pretty sure the Macs were paid for with grants for the visual arts programs rather than standard public funding.
Atomic OSes should be evangelized more aggressively to laypersons. IMO, they’re great for 3 specific use cases:
- gaming (bazzite) - personally, I want my gaming box to “just work”
- thin clients/low-powered laptops used as an entry point to your homelab or other remote systems - again, I like having at least one fairly bulletproof and super stable system to use as a human:homelab gateway/admin machine
- non-techies. If the update fails, just roll back. Can’t remember if that’s generally an automated recovery process or not, but that sort of idiot-proofing is precisely what the general public needs in the context of Linux. Because there are a lot of idiots out there.
I installed Bluefin on my mother’s laptop and it’s like a Chromebook for her. She just wants to surf and consume media, and the OS stays solid and out of they way.
Atomic distros are the biggest advance for Linux in recent years.
Absolutely. Look at Aeon. I turn it on and do what I need to do.
Later I might see a quick pop up that says system has been updated. It didn’t require intervention. It didn’t even tell me it was happening, it just informed me after the fact.
If anything broke, I would never know because on the next boot if something failed it just uses the previous snapshot to boot. As far as I am concerned the system is working just like it always has.
But even as recently as this week I see people saying: immutable? No don’t make it a bad experience for them! Just recommend Ubuntu for newcomers! >:/
On top of being preinstalled, we also need google search-able instructions that avoid the terminal altogether. People are afraid of the terminal, it doesn’t matter why, it just is.
Currently, most solutions to linux problems come in the form of terminal commands. We would have to start creating a whole new troubleshooting forum where instructions avoid the terminal and are just lists of buttons to press in a GUI. Probably helpful screenshots too.
Of course I have no idea if some things even have GUIs at all, like configuring user groups and permissions or firewall settings, someone would need to make them. Not to mention every DE or program would need a different set of instructions, GNOME or KDE, firewalld or iptables. It’ll be a lot of work.
I’m tech literate and use the command line daily. I enjoy how powerful it is but I also enjoy the ease of point and click on windows.
After a hard day coding at work I much prefer poking around windows than using a command line on Linux.
This is the biggest thing. I’m very comfortable in Bash, but that is not the norm; the second my wife needs to run
sudo apt get, she’s out, fuck thatI searched but never ever found a website with Linux help specially for non IT people. This is seriously needed. Everywhere I’ve looked, gatekeepers with no clue about the GUI solutions, insist people use the command line for day to day user tasks. Sure things vary between desktop environments, but it’s important people learn about their desktop. It’s how they get comfortable, and stay. And not stuck reliant on strangers having to spoon feed them cryptic text commands each time. I’d be happy to help contribute. As I’ve found GUI ways to do nearly everything.
I will say part of problem is knowledgeable volunteers will almost always want to just cp and paste a command string over the docs needed to walk someone through doing it in the current version of GUI.
I’ve done both. Repeatable user instructions for GUIs IS NOT FUN. Maybe if we can get some automation to turn vague directions into detailed ones and better yet testable (supporting something like OpenQA) it might help lower the burden for a project to do so.
But that’s several pages of point and click vs. a few lines to copy and paste,
Copy pasting strange commands people will not memorise does not solve it! To keep non IT people on Linux, they need to find out how their desktop GUI works, so they are in control and happy to stay. The aim is not to use the minimum possible time writing the tips. Thrusting an unfamiliar environment on people is sure to scare them away, and is bad usability.
Thrusting in an unfamiliar environment is how I got an STD
Do not copy and paste into Bash if you don’t understand the commands you’re pasting in
Who said I don’t understand them? I’ve done point and click tutorials. They don’t only take forever to follow, they also take forever to make.
Look at this monstrosity:
Holy shit, the copy and paste parts are the easiest parts of them all
Fair; that was mostly a general warning, not necessarily directed at you, because many people do copypaste terminal commands without knowing what they are actually doing.
As long as you understand what a command does, absolutely go for it. No point typing that shit out when somebody else already has
Honestly maybe we need something like a portable guided tour format (you the “see what’s new in …” things but from strangers for specific thing).
That’s an interesting idea, but the problem with UIs is you need some kind of a format to interact with all of the toolkits and legacy programs just to be able to figure out where on the screen the button you need to click is
Right. I feel like maybe Free Desktop standard, tight integration with top toolkits (qt, gtk, etc) and a some image recognition for fall back.
Need hardware with it pre installed with a reason to buy other than because it has Linux
Maybe use the lack of a requirement for a Windows license to bring the price to performance ratio down
If they’re really performant machines also helps break the idea Linux is only for old and slow machines, I only ever used to put it on laptops as they were reaching the end of their usefulness, the moment I put it on my pc and a new laptop it changed my perception on it entirely
I also think the majority of technical users still use windows, maybe we should concentrate on getting them first and maybe we’ll see more support from them
you can’t because it’s explicitly against the whole point of having endless choices. when everyone works on something different, the quality spreads out to where it’s mostly just mediocre stuff across the board.
hardware compatibility is also a huge problem. for everyone that says “it works fine for me” there are a thousand others for whom it does not.
I feel like there’s also the point that on Mac OS a lot of stuff “just works” because everything else just doesn’t work at all. I have a number of things that just aren’t going to work at all on Mac. Linux is obviously much more permissive, which leads to a lot more kinda working stuff that just wouldn’t work at all on Mac.
when everyone works on something different, the quality spreads out to where it’s mostly just mediocre stuff across the board.
I wouldn’t say that’s the only problem. We have pretty high quality stuff on Linux. The other problem is that choice always means differences between options which makes perfect integration hard or even impossible.
I get down toed to oblivion when I point out “just works” isn’t true.
You make a great point about endless choices.
No single UI, no single set of tools, those are massive barriers. And it’s why Windows became the de facto standard: single UI, consistent toolset.
And it’s why Windows became the de facto standard: single UI, consistent toolset.
No so true after win 7, there’s a bunch of legacy menu.
It’s at least the same inconsistent toolset as everyone else. Windows 10? Ok go through this multi step process. 11? Ok this other slightly different process.
VS Linux you have 700 consistent toolsets, and 70000000 inconsistent toolsets.
Yeah but you can have default choices that are guarantee to work.
And yeah preinstalled checked hardware would be ideal.
Needs to be pre installed, most people don’t know how to reset their PC, let alone install a new OS.
Most people have had great answers coming from the company side of things. I’ll take it from the standpoint of individuals like us helping someone linux curious see the light, while still having the “just works” experience.
Do not give them any choices. None. Put them on your stable distro of choice for a new user, call whatever that is “Linux”, and be on your way.
But why? Isn’t that antithetical to everything we value? Yes and no. We value choice almost above anything else, but that doesn’t “just work” for most people. Which of those do you value more?
No-one who buys a PC with windows preinstalled gets any choice at all… and had the preinstalled malware cme with it.
That’s true. Most are perfectly fine provided they have a computer ready to use. Straight out of the box. Immediately. The lack of choice itself is comforting. Everything moves forward. No lateral motion.
We must provide them that type of “thing that just works”. Constantly move forward. What is comfortable. What is familiar.
More GUI front ends for stuff. This takes away the need to understand command line tools and syntax, and makes the out-of-the-box experience feel more like it just works.
Exactly. That’s Windows’ secret. Give us a control center where it’s easy to control NetworkManager, Pipewire, systemd, and other parts of the OS, and give them not-so-technical names. That’s one of the keys to Windows’ success. Others involve EEE and anticompetitive practices but we don’t want Linux going that way now, do we?
It’s not that Windows isn’t complicated, it’s just that there’s a GUI for everything.
Yip. I was trying to find a useful front end to manage the audio settings on my focusrite audio interface. Pipewire has the functions and capability to set the sample rate and buffet size on the fly but I failed to find a gui until for it that wasn’t part of some other complicated thing. When I suggested the Devs of pipewire should provide a GUI I was politely shot down. The reasons given were; it takes too long, and Linux users don’t mind the CMD line. I think this is a mind-set that needs to evolve.
SUSE / OpenSUSE has this. You can open Yast2 GUI utilities and access all the GUI utils like Windows old Command Center. Hardware, package and driver installs, add hardware and configure, network, enable services and tweak parameter, printer tools, mess with boot options or kernel parameters, etc. The average user would never need to touch CLI
It’s current year, I should never have to touch the terminal for anything. I don’t care that it’s powerful, my brain is already full of windows knowledge and I don’t want to have to google what command I need to perform basic functions. Everything needs guis. If there’s a gui, I can figure it out and also discover tools I didn’t know about along the way, which allows me to solve future problems without going insane.
That’s popular sentiment though, so how about one that I don’t see often: Add options to allow windows like behavior. For example, middle click paste is the bane of my existence. I should be able to change it to middle click scroll os wide, not just in firefox. I know that there’s a hacky workaround to kinda make it work, but it sucks.
“Do not let has been burden what could be.” /s
I agree though, other common UX replication options would help user meet the OS where they are more. I also agree that most common system administration and user UX should be doable in a full GUI, they are just so nice for when you don’t know what you are wanting but will once you see it.
I also think VUI (voice user interfaces) would bridge the gap for a lot people and NLP would cover most of the worlds population.
Honestly people keep working on and it ebs and flows in progress. Its just a lot fing work to do it well. One day we will get to doing most functions with multimodal interface support (GUI/CLI/API/VUI/NLP/BCI?).
Whether any OS could ever just work isn’t even going to solve the issue.
Getting OEMs to sell laptops and desktops in Best Buy (or the like) that have Linux installed and is properly supported — that is what will help solve the issue.
having it just work is a necessary step to gett there
When there exists an operating system that can satisfy that qualification, I’ll concede the point. Until then, OEM and retail support is what matters.
Maybe we are too used to Linux working on anything but with some imperfection.
And yet it again leads to oficial supported hardware.
Thank you thank you thank you for posing this question.
This is the biggest issue by far with open source stuff in general, and as a non-programmer who wants to use more and more of it, user unfriendliness hamstrings so much.
I don’t know the answers but I can tell you for a fact that if open source in general is serious about broader adoption, this needs to be occupying 50% of everybody’s open source discussion time, at least.
What I know is the standard “fuck you read my 19 pages of 1s and 0s” is the wrong answer.
Maybe good design is just really hard. I don’t know, I’ve never tried to do it. Seems like the sort of thing that might take three thousands iterations.
Software, 1,000%. I love linux and daily drive it. But when I have videos to edit, photos to rework, or collateral to design I have a windows laptop with professional grade tools to do the job.
I’m sorry, gimp is hot garbage. There isn’t a pro-grade, open source video editing tool or anything close. Inkscape is useable in a pinch. Scribus is useless.
Not everyone is a multimedia creative professional, but most software on linux never quite have the features you need, are no longer maintained, or will be useful in ten years.
That said, I’d still rather break out the laptop when doing client work than daily drive MacOS or Windows 11. Either way the barrier for most users is that linux almost works.
At least we have Bitwig for music production now (if you can work out how to use it… I still haven’t had the time :-/ )
There isn’t a pro-grade, open source video editing tool or anything close
Do you use open source professional grade video editing tools on Windows? Almost certainly not, so why would it be a requirement for Linux?
What we need is companies producing Linux builds of professional grade closed source software. And if the trend of Microsoft making terrible decisions and Linux use increasing, it might actually happen.
This kind of opens up its own point: people need to accept that non-free software isn’t the devil. It actually can be really good for a community to have large entities investing real, actual USD dollars into it, and creating products and services that people want to pay for. It absolutely shouldn’t be the only option, FOSS is a beautiful thing and I love that the Unix community puts a huge emphasis on it. But, without some heavy hitters putting some money on the table, Linux/BSD will always be niche. They won’t go away, but they won’t blow up either.
Gimp works really well, just that it is destructive editting.
As for the software not having features or not being useful, part of that comes down to: if a company offers a linux version make sure you use it. For a proprietary MCAD and PLM system from Siemens, we had a unix version, then windows, then when Linux was viable with support on SUSE and RHEL we had the exact software OEM aerospace and Automotive engineers used for design and management. Trouble is not enough companies used it to make supporting it a worthwhile effort, so they ditched the GUI desktop support. You can still run the few years old version. Maybe it will come back with Linux rising from 1-2% to 4.5% ; if that trend continues
