We’ve all heard it before: People claiming Linux isn’t a viable alternative cause you can’t run it without using the command line.

I decided to test that. Now there are several distros aimed at new users that have preinstalled GUI tools so you don’t have to touch the Terminal. But I wanted to see if that’s also possible on a distro not specifically aimed at fresh converts. The oldest distro with a large userbase, which a lot of people consider to be a “standard” Linux, is Debian, so default Debian with Gnome is what I’ll use.

I consider “running an OS” to at least include booting it with full disk encryption, starting applications, connecting to a network, browsing the web, file management, installing updates and new software (both from the repos and third party sources), installing necessary drivers, setting up printing and scanning, and adjusting the looks and behaviour of the user interface.
So generally anything you’d be able to do on Windows without opening Powershell, CMD, Regedit or a text editor.

I guess I’m telling you nothing new when I say that you can install, boot, launch apps and browse the web on Debian without the command line.
It comes with a pre-installed software center, printer and scanner setup works out of the box from Gnome’s settings.

Here’s where it gets a little trickier: Scrolling on Firefox is rough, cause the preinstalled old version doesn’t have Wayland support enabled. So you either have to enable Wayland support or install the Flatpak version of Firefox.
To enable Wayland, you have to write MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 into /etc/environment. But the file manager doesn’t let you edit system files without starting it as root from the command line. To add an “edit as admin” entry to the context menu in Nautilus, you need the nautilus-admin package which isn’t available in the software center. It can be installed with Synaptic, a pre-installed GUI frontend for apt. But you still need to edit a system text file, which goes against the spirit of this challenge.
The other option requires enabling Flatpak for the Software Center. You can do that by installing gnome-software-plugin-flatpak using synaptic, then heading over to https://flathub.org/setup/Debian to download the flathub repo file which can be installed with a double-click and a reboot.
Note: Beginner-friendly distros ship with a newer Firefox version and Flatpak support out of the box.

To install any compatible binary on your system (like the Universal Android Debloater, for example), just copy it to any place you like. Install the menu editor alacarte and use it to add a menu entry for the file. Now you can launch it from within Gnome by clicking on its icon or using the global search.

Another issue is that during the boot process, you’re already presented with the command line running boot messages by you, and the password prompt for the disk decryption is also on the command line. Also, the 5 second Grub countdown is kind of annoying. To make this prettier, we need to install grub-customizer, launch it, set the grub countdown to 0 and add the word splash at the end of your kernel parameters in the settings. This activates the “boot-prettifier” plymouth which is pre-installed but not activated by default. Again, pushing the boundaries of this challenge.
Note: Beginner-friendly distros come with pretty plymouth boot enabled by default.

To enable the non-free nvidia Driver, you need to enable non-free software during the GUI installation or in the Software Center settings, then install nvidia-driver from Synaptic, and reboot.
Note: Beginner-friendly distros come with a one-click NVidia driver install

To install Steam from the Debian repos, you’d need to enable Multi-Arch first, which isn’t possible without the command line. Using the Flatpak version is your other option.
Note: Some beginner-friendly distros handle this for you as soon as you install a package that depends on multi-arch

tl/dr: It’s possible to run and administer Debian for standard tasks without touching the command line. It’s just generally faster to use the terminal if you know what you’re doing.
Distros like Ubuntu, Mint, Zorin or Pop!_OS (possibly also Manjaro which I have no experience with) remove the remaining roadblocks. The only time you’ll always need the command line is to fix issues you have with help from other users, because it’s much, much easier to just post the right terminal commands online than to guide you through whichever GUI you might be using.
Anyone who’s ever followed a Windows troubleshooting guide knows what I’m talking about.

    • Bye@lemmy.world
      232·
      6 months ago

      They’ve been raised on systems where you don’t need it, and they fundamentally don’t understand how one talks to a computer. It’s actually quite a bit to learn, and if you didn’t grow up doing it, it seems like a big cliff.

    • ScreaminOctopus@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      8·
      6 months ago

      Because until you spend many hours getting used to it, it’s annoying as hell. I’m a longtime bash user, but if I have to do anything in PowerShell, it sucks. Bash is even less friendly to novice/casual users due to tools like awk and sed being totally obtuse. When you’re unfamiliar with the workflow, not being to see everything you’re able to do at a glance is pretty frustrating.

    • Windex007@lemmy.world
      5·
      6 months ago

      I mean, the answer to this is obvious if you can empathize.

      Gui has baked into it hints on cause and effect. The terminal is a freeform incantation machine where you need to know and utter magic spells.

      sudo rm -rf /

      Is just as magically nonsense as

      sudo apt-get update

      If you don’t know what ANY of it does, your capacity to fuck things up is unbounded on the terminal. In a GUI, rightly or wrongly, you expect your capacity to fuck things up is bounded by the context at hand. I do not expect that I can nuke my system clicking through Firefox.

      You can claw the terminal from my cold dead hands, but I’m not offended by the notion of a GUI.

      Why? Because developer attention scales broadly by usage. Well used projects get more love. If we could even break 10% home adoption of any Linux distro and the runaway effect of net new developer input would destroy closed source operating systems, and I’m here for it. If that means adding a fucking Ubuntu checkbox to let people enable Wayland without strictly requiring the command line go fucking nuts.

      • macniel@feddit.de
        31·
        6 months ago

        mhm but the first time you invoke sudo, you get hit with that sudo warning which should trigger something in the user that perhaps they should rethink what they are doing.

          • macniel@feddit.de
            21·
            6 months ago

            or you know, you could ask people. You wouldn’t start linux if you aren’t curious and or have someone in your circle who knows about linux a bit more.

            • Windex007@lemmy.world
              5·
              6 months ago

              I can’t even begin to count the number of times I’ve seen absolutely terrible advice posted and taken regarding how to do things in Linux. Can’t connect to something? Easy, make a blanket iptables rule to permit everything. Something can’t read a file? Chmod 777. Install isn’t working? Just install as root and use root as your general login from there on out.

              It’s hard to learn Linux.

              But it’s even harder to FORGET what you’ve learned, to empathize with what it was like to not understand it at all. That’s why it’s SO HARD for us who’ve been using it daily for a decade to empathize with newcomers.

              It’s why people literally can’t fathom why people are afraid of the terminal.

              It’s why, even when someone takes the time to explain why, people go, “nah, that couldn’t possibly be it”

              It’s like when gun people can’t comprehend why people are afraid of guns. The answer is obvious they just can’t hear it.

              Edit: I think I better understand that there are more nuances around the cases now, and I think I’m being unfair by making blanket statements about what is and isn’t obvious

              • macniel@feddit.de
                2·
                6 months ago

                I agree that learning Linux, when all you’ve known was Windows, is hard.

                My first computer had only PCDOS (it was the early 90s) and I’ve never been afraid of a black screen with a white cursor blinking.

                But I refuse that someone who would be interested in Linux, would just willy nilly install it, has to resort to the terminal, is faced with the sudo screen and then just give up. It’s after all not a drop in replacement, neither is macOS.

                So where did that interest stem from?

                • Influencers on Social Media? Why not ask those, asking questions doesn’t make you look stupid (unless the questioned are stupid themselves and have a superiorty complex).

                • As a recommendation from a friend? Well that friend totally is now their tech support for anything linux.

                • Or they are own their own but then that curiosity has to be quite immense to begin with and something like a terminal wouldn’t deter them.

                • Windex007@lemmy.world
                  5·
                  6 months ago

                  Ok, I think I see your position more clearly now:

                  You’re thinking about people who are interested and installing based on technical interest and curiosity.

                  In those cases, I think you’re probably right. There is probably some base competency at play. A desire to learn. Probably someone in their sphere to support.

                  I’m thinking more about the type of people who would buy a Chromebook. Or my cheap ass parents who want to squeeze another 5 years out of an ailing laptop. They don’t want to spend any money and just want to use Facebook and YouTube. Send some emails. Connect to wifi. Print their boarding passes. Not have their machines riddled with viruses within minutes because their windows OS isn’t getting security updates anymore. I think this is actually a massive use case, and I want Linux to be accessible to them without needing to use the terminal for anything.

      • cerement@slrpnk.net
        22·
        6 months ago

        this explains caution, wariness, concern, unfamiliarity with the terminal – it doesn’t explain the revulsion people show to even the thought of the terminal as a partner to a GUI

        • Windex007@lemmy.world
          4·
          6 months ago

          IMO, caution, wariness, concern, and unfamiliarity manifest as revulsion.

          EVs. Solar panels. Heat pumps. Anything outside of CIS heteronormal relationships.

          I’m my experience, after the age of like, 25, people (in GENERAL… Obviously many expectations) feel like they’ve got life figured out and push back against pretty much anything that challenges whatever they’ve grown accustomed to.

          Nobody bitched about the DOS prompt when nobody knew how to use computers. Young people learned it. Old people insisted computers were a fad and pushed back entirely.

          In my calculation, it’s just typical and predictable human response. Open to other theories though.

      • KaRunChiy@kbin.run
        6·
        6 months ago

        That’s kinda why shells like Fish are so nice, it shows autocompletes, shows me not only commands, filenames, but also arguments too commands too. If i vaguely remember what the name of the command is, I don’t really have to open up and documentation or google to find it out, i just try some combos and usually get it. The real weird thing is why distros don’t ship with user friendly shells, but insist on sticking with bash

        • KISSmyOSFeddit@lemmy.worldOP
          3·
          6 months ago

          There’s a bunch of standards that were supposed to keep all Unix-like systems compatible with each other (POSIX).
          Linux deviated from them, then set up a bunch of different standards to make sure all Linux distros are compatible with each other (LSB).
          Almost no Linux distro nowadays still follows those standards either, but they are the reason Bash is the default. Fish isn’t standard-compliant.

        • alsimoneau@lemmy.ca
          2·
          6 months ago

          I landed on oh-my-bash, zoxide and some other utilities. It really improved my terminal experience.

      • cerement@slrpnk.net
        12·
        6 months ago
        • you have to figure out what the icons are and which menu holds which command
        • in a GUI, only the basic options are laid out for you – newcomers regularly assume something can’t be done because the option isn’t there rather trying to find out if the option has just been moved to a completely different area of the UI
        • GUIs regularly freeze up with even less indication of what’s going on (do you wait a few seconds or half an hour when the beach ball isn’t spinning)
        • (on a side note, GUIs are generally a nightmare for accessibility options)
        • macniel@feddit.de
          21·
          6 months ago

          GUIs regularly freeze up with even less indication of what’s going on (do you wait a few seconds or half an hour when the beach ball isn’t spinning)

          mhm, i totally love how cp, mv, rm doesn’t show ANYTHING resembling progress while it shows a simple blinking cursor, it doesn’t event prevent the user from typing anything.