at what level of desperation do you have to be that you look at totalitarian states and decide they’re the forefront of leftism in the world, instead of just like, admitting they didn’t work and trying to avoid the mistakes they made? seriously, why? in an ideology and belief system heavily entrenched in nuance why do you view the world in black and white? why is it being a “lib” to say that governments who repress the human rights and civil liberties of minorities are not practicing leftism in good faith? the same governments who have horrifically and violently crushed workers rights movements? who have enforced crippling wealth inequality in their own borders? do you even know what leftism is?
Some strawman stuff here. Define authoritarian? I look at the US and cant think of a better description. Seriously. I support Cuba. Oh but state control of economic structure you tankie!!!
It’s a pejorative used to stop talking is all. Id rather actually engage in dialogue instead of shouting memes at each other
The state owning the means of production is no better than capitalists. Only when the workers control it themselves will communism be achieved and settling for anything less shouldn’t be accepted
I get your general point, but I’d like to say that theoretically you could have a socialist system where the state owns the means of production for certain industries and the workers would have control through the state as long as the state is an actual functioning democracy.
The problem, of course, is that states with that much power almost always devolve into authoritarianism because of the corrupting force of power.
All I’m trying to say is that, if done right, you could have actual worker control via the state as long as the state is actually listening to and, in some sense, subservient to the people.
This is no way defends the state capitalism we see in China and Russia since they are not even close to a functioning democracy.
I believe I’m an anarchist at heart, though I’m not sure the world, with its current population, is ready for that level of self reliance and community building. Lots of learned behavior to break.
We kind of dug ourselves a mighty deep hole as a species. We need to be better.
Growing up in a western capitalist state has left me fairly jaded as far as politics go, tbf
The question always comes down to how do we stop people from being bad. The answer escapes me tbh.
“The question always comes down to how do we stop people from being bad.” This is the problem with not having a materialist analysis of the world, its not about being bad or being good or morality at all. At large people are motivated by self interest, perpetuating and sustaining their material conditions. Its only through struggle of the oppressed against those in power that change can come about.
I am an anarchist. And I understand that. I flip flop between having hope and thinking there is none. Some days I think we missed our chance and now we’re too far gone. Other days I look at movements like the Zapatistas and Rojava and think that their may be hope. Ultimately I don’t think any first world country is gonna have it happen. Maybe if a country had a successful anarchist revolution and society, it’d be able to inspire people in first world countries. But I do think our hope lies outside of first world countries. At least till there is a proper example to inspire people.
I do still try to put an effort into organizing where I live. As I think it is still important to do that. Even if I don’t think it will garner fruit till there is a true example of anarchism in action.
I’ve found that the most I can do is to touch people in my everyday, hopefully sparking some sort of revolution within themselves, but not in an intrusive or dogmatic way. I live in a particularly conservative area, and I find that they are just people, people whove been indoctrinated to the point of apathy, with a side of fear of the unknown ie racism etc. I’m knee deep in the shit, and it’s overwhelming sometimes.
I am not hopeful for any political or economic agenda. But I am hopeful of the human spirit.
It’s pretty resilient, but also malleable. You add in our self perpetuating ‘I me mine’ mentality and you end up with bad actors taking advantage of the majority, decent people.
I do agree that the 1st world, at least where I am, would need something pretty tragic to spark some sort of sweeping change. We are not taught self awareness, at least I wasn’t, and I think that’s where alot of our progress will need to come from.
I like the story about how Francisco Ferrer got the funding for his school. He taught Spanish to this old, heavily religious and conservative, rich woman. He was able to change her mind by being respectful and not attacking her beliefs, but by having respectful discussion with her. He was never the one to initiate the discussions, which helped keep her from getting defensive and shutting down. And she ended up funding his rationalist secular school.
Supporting Cuba doesn’t a tankie make: Good arguments can be had that Cuba is actually a democracy, and not in the “democracy is when party rules” kind of way. Supporting North Korea, OTOH…
at what level of desperation do you have to be that you look at totalitarian states and decide they’re the forefront of leftism in the world, instead of just like, admitting they didn’t work and trying to avoid the mistakes they made? seriously, why? in an ideology and belief system heavily entrenched in nuance why do you view the world in black and white? why is it being a “lib” to say that governments who repress the human rights and civil liberties of minorities are not practicing leftism in good faith? the same governments who have horrifically and violently crushed workers rights movements? who have enforced crippling wealth inequality in their own borders? do you even know what leftism is?
Some strawman stuff here. Define authoritarian? I look at the US and cant think of a better description. Seriously. I support Cuba. Oh but state control of economic structure you tankie!!!
It’s a pejorative used to stop talking is all. Id rather actually engage in dialogue instead of shouting memes at each other
The state owning the means of production is no better than capitalists. Only when the workers control it themselves will communism be achieved and settling for anything less shouldn’t be accepted
I get your general point, but I’d like to say that theoretically you could have a socialist system where the state owns the means of production for certain industries and the workers would have control through the state as long as the state is an actual functioning democracy.
The problem, of course, is that states with that much power almost always devolve into authoritarianism because of the corrupting force of power.
All I’m trying to say is that, if done right, you could have actual worker control via the state as long as the state is actually listening to and, in some sense, subservient to the people.
This is no way defends the state capitalism we see in China and Russia since they are not even close to a functioning democracy.
States with that much power will always devolve into authoritarianism. If there is a power structure, it will be corrupted. That’s the issue.
Yea that’s where I’m at. Human nature is a bitch.
I believe I’m an anarchist at heart, though I’m not sure the world, with its current population, is ready for that level of self reliance and community building. Lots of learned behavior to break.
We kind of dug ourselves a mighty deep hole as a species. We need to be better.
Growing up in a western capitalist state has left me fairly jaded as far as politics go, tbf
The question always comes down to how do we stop people from being bad. The answer escapes me tbh.
“The question always comes down to how do we stop people from being bad.” This is the problem with not having a materialist analysis of the world, its not about being bad or being good or morality at all. At large people are motivated by self interest, perpetuating and sustaining their material conditions. Its only through struggle of the oppressed against those in power that change can come about.
I am an anarchist. And I understand that. I flip flop between having hope and thinking there is none. Some days I think we missed our chance and now we’re too far gone. Other days I look at movements like the Zapatistas and Rojava and think that their may be hope. Ultimately I don’t think any first world country is gonna have it happen. Maybe if a country had a successful anarchist revolution and society, it’d be able to inspire people in first world countries. But I do think our hope lies outside of first world countries. At least till there is a proper example to inspire people.
I do still try to put an effort into organizing where I live. As I think it is still important to do that. Even if I don’t think it will garner fruit till there is a true example of anarchism in action.
I really feel what you have said.
I’ve found that the most I can do is to touch people in my everyday, hopefully sparking some sort of revolution within themselves, but not in an intrusive or dogmatic way. I live in a particularly conservative area, and I find that they are just people, people whove been indoctrinated to the point of apathy, with a side of fear of the unknown ie racism etc. I’m knee deep in the shit, and it’s overwhelming sometimes.
I am not hopeful for any political or economic agenda. But I am hopeful of the human spirit.
It’s pretty resilient, but also malleable. You add in our self perpetuating ‘I me mine’ mentality and you end up with bad actors taking advantage of the majority, decent people.
I do agree that the 1st world, at least where I am, would need something pretty tragic to spark some sort of sweeping change. We are not taught self awareness, at least I wasn’t, and I think that’s where alot of our progress will need to come from.
I like the story about how Francisco Ferrer got the funding for his school. He taught Spanish to this old, heavily religious and conservative, rich woman. He was able to change her mind by being respectful and not attacking her beliefs, but by having respectful discussion with her. He was never the one to initiate the discussions, which helped keep her from getting defensive and shutting down. And she ended up funding his rationalist secular school.
No one is a lost cause.
Production should only be for the people. I don’t even like the profit motive at all, worker, owner, or otherwise. Society should be resource based.
Supporting Cuba doesn’t a tankie make: Good arguments can be had that Cuba is actually a democracy, and not in the “democracy is when party rules” kind of way. Supporting North Korea, OTOH…