No, they are not free, they are gratis alternatives.
“Free software” is one term, and it’s meaning was defined in 1986 by RMS. Non of these software existed that time.
The word “free” in our name does not refer to price; it refers to freedom. First, the freedom to copy a program and redistribute it to your neighbors, so that they can use it as well as you. Second,** the freedom to change a program, so that you can control it instead of it controlling you; for this, the source code must be made available to you.**
You’re right, the first amendment wasn’t about freedom of expression, it was about not having to pay for books.
Using the word free to describe something that doesn’t restrict you has been a thing for centuries. “Free Software” has been the accepted term within the software world to denote freedom respecting, libre, and open source software since the 80’s.
You’d maybe have a point if this was made up today, or even 10 years ago, but this was settled during the early years of the industry. Free software is free as in freedom, freeware is gratis but not free.
This is established industry jargon, and has been for over two fucking decades. Not really sure why its being argued.
There is no one with the authority to make that determination.
“Free” as in “no fee” has been heavily used the entire time people have tried to steal the definition to only apply to license terms, it has always been objectively correct, and it is literally impossible for it to ever not be objectively correct.
it is literally impossible for it to ever not be objectively correct
And yet here you are, using “literally” to mean “figuratively.” Excuse me for not accepting your linguistic authority on the immutability of other words.
No, I absolutely am not. There is no path to any future where someone will be wrong to use the word “free” to describe software that doesn’t cost anything.
Meanings fall out of use (which hasn’t happened here) They don’t become invalidated. They’re not capable of becoming invalidated.
Whether or not its “invalid” isn’t the point. Those are the accepted terms by most people, especially those in the industry. The point of language is to communicate ideas.
When most people say “free software”, they’re talking about software that’s free as in freedom. Using it otherwise just causes unnecessary confusion.
There is no path to any future where someone will be wrong to use the word “free” to describe software that doesn’t cost anything.
Setting aside that doing so is already misleading, you clearly lack imagination if you cannot think of any feasible way for that to happen.
For example, consider a future where use of the phrase when advertising your product could result in legal issues. That isn’t too far-fetched.
They don’t become invalidated. They’re not capable of becoming invalidated.
They certainly can. A given meaning of a word is invalidated if it is no longer acceptable to use it in a given context for that meaning. In a medical context, for example, words become obsolete and unacceptable to use.
Likewise, it isn’t valid to say that your Aunt Edna is “hysterical” because she has epilepsy.
But more importantly, that’s all beside the point. Words don’t just have meaning in isolation - context matters. Phrases can have meanings that are different than just the sum of their parts, and saying a phrase but meaning something different won’t communicate what you meant. If you say something that doesn’t communicate what you meant, then obviously, what you said is incorrect.
“Free software” has an established meaning (try Googling it or looking it up on Wikipedia), and if you use it to mean something different, people will likely misunderstand you and/or correct you. They’re not wrong in this situation - you are.
That, or you’re trying to live life like a character from Airplane!:
This woman has to be gotten to a hospital.
A hospital? What is it?
It’s a big building with patients, but that’s not important right now.
enjoying personal freedom : not subject to the control or domination of another
Merriam webster dictionary definition 2D.
That is a definition people use when discussing libre software. The software is under YOUR control. If adobe says “fuck you, you don’t get the brush tool anymore” thats it for the brush tool. If gimp gets rid of a feature in the main branch, you can say “no fuck you I like this tool” and can just keep the code base that included it still.
Also you have a rather perscriptive understanding of language, which just simply isn’t how language works. Languages evolve over time. Open up a dictionary and see how many definitions are listed as antiquated. Those are definitions that aren’t used anymore as they fell out of favor.
Now get off your high horse about how words aren’t the same as they used to be or how words are frozen to definitions.
Also you have a rather perscriptive understanding of language
Lol wtf are you talking about? No they don’t. Everyone telling them they are wrong is being prescriptive. All they are doing is saying “it’s not wrong to use a word according to an incredibly common definition of that word”. Which is precisely the opposite of prescriptive.
I’m not opposing people calling that software free.
I’m saying that you are wrong (and an asshole) every single time you correct someone calling any software without a price tag free. Because that definition is also correct, long before some deluded douche tried to lay exclusive claim to it. The “free software can only mean open source” people are the ones ignoring what the word actually means (and has always meant) in the real world. They’re trying to own language and take away correct usages to service their own agendas.
Free software meant “no charge” before he pulled that nonsense ideological claim to the word. It meant it after he tried to own the word. And it still means it today. Multiple uses of the same word are fine. Trying to invalidate correct usage is not.
He speaks about free in “free software”. not a general meaning.
But the meme says “free software” and implies that the real “free software” alternatives (linux, gimp, blender and friends) are shitty, and they are used only because of their price. These are not “free software” alternatives, but gratis software alternatives, or freeware alternatives. that is my problem.
The general meanings were already applied to software before he shouted to the heavens that he owned the term. Any valid use of the word free is exactly as correct when applied to software.
What German word was used there? Are you suggesting gratis is German? Maybe it is, but it’s also English. And we didn’t even borrow it from German. It’s Latin.
Both of them are latin words so I expect they show up in similar forms in most European languages. Free is a Germanic origin word.
In Hungarian we use the word Gratis as well with Hungarian spelling: “Grátisz” even though Hungarian is not an Indo-European language. Libre is not used in common speech here.
I find it very confusing when german words are used to mean something different that their english counterparts.
So in english:
free ≠ gratis ≠ libre
fear ≠ Angst
car ≈ Auto (i heard it used for a car with a automatic transmission and also a few years ago as a term for a selfdriving car)
But also the other way around
In Swiss-German:
Bus ≠ Car
(First one being a trolleybus in a city, second one a bus that takes a schoolclass on a trip.)
I am aware that words like “gratis” or “auto” are not exclusive to german, I guess that gave me the downvotes.
No, they are not free, they are gratis alternatives.
“Free software” is one term, and it’s meaning was defined in 1986 by RMS. Non of these software existed that time.
You’re acting like he invented the word “free”.
He doesn’t get to hijack and redefine it, and his redefinition is not any kind of objective reality.
You’re right, the first amendment wasn’t about freedom of expression, it was about not having to pay for books.
Using the word free to describe something that doesn’t restrict you has been a thing for centuries. “Free Software” has been the accepted term within the software world to denote freedom respecting, libre, and open source software since the 80’s.
This isn’t about because Richard Stallman said so. Its because its the definition pretty much everyone, especially those who’ve actually touched a compiler, uses.
Trying to remove an objectively correct definition is more “redefining” a word than adding one is.
You’d maybe have a point if this was made up today, or even 10 years ago, but this was settled during the early years of the industry. Free software is free as in freedom, freeware is gratis but not free.
This is established industry jargon, and has been for over two fucking decades. Not really sure why its being argued.
There is no one with the authority to make that determination.
“Free” as in “no fee” has been heavily used the entire time people have tried to steal the definition to only apply to license terms, it has always been objectively correct, and it is literally impossible for it to ever not be objectively correct.
And yet here you are, using “literally” to mean “figuratively.” Excuse me for not accepting your linguistic authority on the immutability of other words.
No, I absolutely am not. There is no path to any future where someone will be wrong to use the word “free” to describe software that doesn’t cost anything.
Meanings fall out of use (which hasn’t happened here) They don’t become invalidated. They’re not capable of becoming invalidated.
Whether or not its “invalid” isn’t the point. Those are the accepted terms by most people, especially those in the industry. The point of language is to communicate ideas.
When most people say “free software”, they’re talking about software that’s free as in freedom. Using it otherwise just causes unnecessary confusion.
Setting aside that doing so is already misleading, you clearly lack imagination if you cannot think of any feasible way for that to happen.
For example, consider a future where use of the phrase when advertising your product could result in legal issues. That isn’t too far-fetched.
They certainly can. A given meaning of a word is invalidated if it is no longer acceptable to use it in a given context for that meaning. In a medical context, for example, words become obsolete and unacceptable to use.
Likewise, it isn’t valid to say that your Aunt Edna is “hysterical” because she has epilepsy.
But more importantly, that’s all beside the point. Words don’t just have meaning in isolation - context matters. Phrases can have meanings that are different than just the sum of their parts, and saying a phrase but meaning something different won’t communicate what you meant. If you say something that doesn’t communicate what you meant, then obviously, what you said is incorrect.
“Free software” has an established meaning (try Googling it or looking it up on Wikipedia), and if you use it to mean something different, people will likely misunderstand you and/or correct you. They’re not wrong in this situation - you are.
That, or you’re trying to live life like a character from Airplane!:
Merriam webster dictionary definition 2D.
That is a definition people use when discussing libre software. The software is under YOUR control. If adobe says “fuck you, you don’t get the brush tool anymore” thats it for the brush tool. If gimp gets rid of a feature in the main branch, you can say “no fuck you I like this tool” and can just keep the code base that included it still.
Also you have a rather perscriptive understanding of language, which just simply isn’t how language works. Languages evolve over time. Open up a dictionary and see how many definitions are listed as antiquated. Those are definitions that aren’t used anymore as they fell out of favor.
Now get off your high horse about how words aren’t the same as they used to be or how words are frozen to definitions.
Lol wtf are you talking about? No they don’t. Everyone telling them they are wrong is being prescriptive. All they are doing is saying “it’s not wrong to use a word according to an incredibly common definition of that word”. Which is precisely the opposite of prescriptive.
I’m not opposing people calling that software free.
I’m saying that you are wrong (and an asshole) every single time you correct someone calling any software without a price tag free. Because that definition is also correct, long before some deluded douche tried to lay exclusive claim to it. The “free software can only mean open source” people are the ones ignoring what the word actually means (and has always meant) in the real world. They’re trying to own language and take away correct usages to service their own agendas.
Free software meant “no charge” before he pulled that nonsense ideological claim to the word. It meant it after he tried to own the word. And it still means it today. Multiple uses of the same word are fine. Trying to invalidate correct usage is not.
He speaks about free in “free software”. not a general meaning.
But the meme says “free software” and implies that the real “free software” alternatives (linux, gimp, blender and friends) are shitty, and they are used only because of their price. These are not “free software” alternatives, but gratis software alternatives, or freeware alternatives. that is my problem.
There’s no such thing.
The general meanings were already applied to software before he shouted to the heavens that he owned the term. Any valid use of the word free is exactly as correct when applied to software.
As a german speaking person: Shut up and stop using german translations of words as if it has a different meaning. It gives me Angst.
(Edit: explanation down in the comments, I am aware that “gratis” isn’t exclusively german)
What German word was used there? Are you suggesting gratis is German? Maybe it is, but it’s also English. And we didn’t even borrow it from German. It’s Latin.
As a spanish/romance speaking person: ahahahah LOL!
Where do you thing “gratis” and “libre” come from?
Ich kann nicht sprachen deutch sehr gut. wdym, what is the original german meaning?
gratis means free, but only in the sense that it dosen‘t cost money. So it seems like a valid use for the word.
Is there an english equivalent?
Gratis and libre used usually to differenciate the terms: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratis_versus_libre
Both of them are latin words so I expect they show up in similar forms in most European languages. Free is a Germanic origin word.
In Hungarian we use the word Gratis as well with Hungarian spelling: “Grátisz” even though Hungarian is not an Indo-European language. Libre is not used in common speech here.
I don’t get what @[email protected] wanted to say
I find it very confusing when german words are used to mean something different that their english counterparts.
So in english: free ≠ gratis ≠ libre fear ≠ Angst car ≈ Auto (i heard it used for a car with a automatic transmission and also a few years ago as a term for a selfdriving car)
But also the other way around In Swiss-German: Bus ≠ Car (First one being a trolleybus in a city, second one a bus that takes a schoolclass on a trip.)
I am aware that words like “gratis” or “auto” are not exclusive to german, I guess that gave me the downvotes.
No, you got downvoted because you were insulting and incorrect.
Gratuitous can be used to mean the same thing, but English speakers also use gratis
Yes: “gratis”.
English is literally about mugging other languages in a backalley for words (and boning them for grammar). It’s the ISO standard procedure.